submitted 2 months ago byGotTheC0nch
all 2262 comments
2 months ago
2 months ago
Well as a Pole it’s shocking that lots of you learned that today.
2 months ago
So many people genuinely don't realize that the holocaust alone killed 6 million OTHER people besides Jewish people. Nevermind the more ad-hoc war crimes and civilian deaths that weren't strictly intended.
All in all the nazis were pretty bad
Thank you, Norm.
This Hitler guys a real jerk!
Well except for his dog, his dog probably thought, “wow this hitler guy is just the best.”
At the very least, not the one who got fed cyanide pills.
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3 mln polish 1mln homosexuals 1 mln romani and then some more other "inferriors" (i take those numbers from memory, they may be off)
edit: should have been 1 mln homosexuals, romani and then some more other "inferriors"
I thought you were saying "min" instead of abbreviating "million" and I was like, this is the strangest fucking recipe I've ever heard.
In fairness you could argue it is min, as in minimum, cause those numbers are on the more conservative side I believe
Minimum 3 polish people is pretty conservative, yeah 😆
Understatement of the damn millennium
And the plan (Generalplan Ost) was to kill "20 to 30 million Slavs and Jews" in the territories conquered after the attack on Poland and Soviet Union.
This. People forget that the original nazis were absurdly evil. The only dictatorship that I think surpasses that was Pol Pot's Cambodia, but they were too incompetent to go beyond their borders.
The Soviet Union might have (arguably, if you don't count WW2) had a larger kill count, but over a much longer period of time and in a larger population. And they won the war. If thr Nazis had won the Second World War and held the European mainland for a couple of decades while implementing their vision (unlikely, but still), the Holocaust would have paled in comparison to what would come after. Tens of millions of deaths and hundreds of millions of slaves.
The Roma were rounded just as quickly as the Jews. Thankfully my family got the fuck outta Europe in the early 1900s.
The movie (and book I suppose) "Sophie's choice" is based on the story of a Roma mother.
too many people today don't realise that they would have been on the nazi list.
Also sadly, too many people today don't realise that they would have been on the nazi side.
History has already been whitewashed. Plenty of people back then we're perfectly okay with what was happening just up until the war was over.
Or really just indifferent. "Yeah sure, the Rosensteins next door were nice people but I guess you can't help it."
People tend to rationalize a lot of shit - the farer away from you the easier it becomes.
The pandemic really underlined this for me. No one wants old ladies to die, or hospitals overrun. Of course they don’t. But ask people to put a thin layer of cloth over their face to save someone’s life? Nope. It’s so easy to see how a whole country became indifferent when the alternative meant you join the Rosenstiens at camp.
People don’t want their neighbours killed. Of course they don’t. But we have seen first hand that people also have a very low tolerance of things they are willing to do to save a persons life, and the mental gymnastics they are willing to do to to justify the lack of action.
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Don't forget all the Asian American hatred that was in this country when the pandemic happened as well. Then excuse to "start racism again!" /s Same shit happened after 9/11 with so-called Arabs (which weren't even always Arabic but any person from the Middle East was targeted if they looked Middle East and they were targeted etc.)
I (a visibly disabled white woman) once had another white woman who was canvassing for a neo-nazi come up to me and tell me that they wanted to fight for women like me.
They used my people to figure out how they could kill everybody else. We were among the first to start disappearing, because we were the among the most acceptable to lose (which is true today too, we saw a great resurgence of how prevalent that belief is during the worst of covid).
I gave her I don't know what kind of look it was, but I managed to tell her that no, they wanted to kill women like me and I said something else too but I cannot for the life of me remember what it was now because I was so full of adrenaline. It wasn't nice though.
There is now that short on Netflix called "Forgive Us Our Trespasses" which is about disabled people and the Holocaust and I highly recommend it. I'm glad it's a short, I think it pacts a stronger punch, but also because that punch hit so hard for me that I don't know how I'd handle a full length feature.
The disabled often are a first Target because they're visually easily the first to be picked out as different and inferior whether or not it's true. My heart breaks for those who are simply killed because they needed a cane or wheelchair.
11 million people of non jewish decent and 6 million of jewish decent. 17 million people in total, really wish we taught this number more. To show the true total of the nazis destruction.
Not just Jewish people, but also the disabled (who, iirc, were the first to be systematically exterminated), queer people (the first nazi book-burning was the works of the Institute of Sexual Studies, a research and advocacy organisation that among other things conducted some of the earliest work on trans-affirming care - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft ), Roma, slavs, and of course the communists, socialists, trade unionists and so forth mentioned in the poem.
Reminds me of this scene from The Man in the High Castle. It's only a minute long so I won't ruin it but the absolute casualness of the exchange always gets me.
I thought the true approximation of loss of life was closer to 15-16million. Obviously Jews, but in addition to anyone viewed as opposition or sympathizer: You were almost certainly murdered if your skin color, language, physical & mental fitness, culture and/or lifestyle weren’t to their liking. Think of this when you hear people today decry “diversity”
In no way diminishing the 6M Jews that lost their lives, but people are simply unaware of an equally large amount of “others” that were also wiped off the Earth by Nazis.
Even England outlawed this which is why we no longer have Turing among the living back then.
A lot of people don’t know the concentration camps were franchises. They hear the name of the well known camps - Auschwitz, Treblinka, Bergen Belsen. But there were 1,000 concentration camps. They were organized like hotel chains, but for exploiting and killing people vs hospitality.
Please don't give "Extended Stay America" any more ideas.
A lot of people don’t know the concentration camps were franchises
A lot of people don’t know the concentration camps were franchises
This is completely false. Franchises are privately owned businesses that license a name, branding, etc. from an IP owner.
The word you're looking for is "sub-camps", not "franchises".
Jasenovac in Yugoslavia ended up making Auschwitz look tame in comparison. It got so bad that with German help, the children in the Stara Gradiska complex were moved to other, more humane concentration camps in 1942. A lot of the concentration camps were just work camps and didn't do the mass killings there. Probably both because they needed the labor force and because it was easier to control the information if they only committed the genocide further in their borders.
For example there were some concentration camps on Guernsey, Jersey, and Alderney in the Channel Islands in order to build fortifications and they were so well fortified for no strategic value that they were completely bypassed. There were Red Cross food drops to try helping keep the civilians from starving but they weren't liberated until May of 1945.
Ok but Auschwitz saw over a million people die in its walls. Jasenovac saw less than 100,000. The Nazis learned really early on that killing people one at a time was bad for soldier morale, so they perfected mass murder with camps like Auschwitz.
You're either confused about how the camps were run or what "franchise" means. Nazi death camps weren't franchised out, although many ordinary non-Germans (including many Poles) helped round up and murder Jews. But death camps were run by the German state, primarily the SS, which unlike the German military, was 100% run by the Nazi Party.
I live in the US. When I tell someone that my Babcia (grandmother) is a Holocaust survivor the most common response I get is, "wait, you're Jewish?".
I’m in a similar boat. Had an aunt who was a survivor of the holocaust as well. They say the same thing: “I didn’t know you were Jewish!”
I’m not. She was a political dissident to the nazis who imprisoned her.
My baba and dido were Ukrainian and fleeing Stalin and that was enough to get them put in a concentration camp.
It's the thing people don't realize about race driven hate mongering.
It never stops at the racial divide alone.
So if people are trying to get together a coup to enact their persecution of a particular racial group, and you think "well, I'm not part of that racial group so this doesn't really impact me" - you may just find out that you were wrong in a very bad way.
Also, the most ironic part is that often persecutory violent movements almost immediately take the first group lining people up against a wall and then line those people up against a wall (or send them to front lines), as once you are in power the group that took violent means to overthrow power structures turns from being a tool enabling seizing power to being a loose cannon it's safer to dispose of.
Same, I tell people my prababcia (great grandmother) was in Auschwitz and people assume I'm Jewish. One of my good friends in high school (in the US), who majored in history, visited Poland with me and I took her to Auschwitz and it wasn't till she read the history there that she learned Poles were being sent there en mass 1-2 years before they started to round up the Jewish population.
It was a time of so much horror for so many people, but it really is infuriating when almost half of the people the Nazis murdered are forgotten.
It's estimated that nearly 11 million people died in Nazi concentration camps, but the number most people quote is 6 million.
I can relate. My mother’s family was nearly eliminated save for her father and mother, my grandparents, who met each other in the prison camp.
as a german, same
As an American, I am not surprised at all that this is the first time I’ve heard about this.
Yeah, around here you mostly just hear the number "6 million". But that's just the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The total murder count was around 11 million, which included Poles, the disabled, gays, Romani, and a variety of other categories of people.
Romani family on my mother's side moved from Europe in the early 1910's to the US. Years ago a genealogist in the family tried researching our relatives still left in Europe, and we couldn't find any who weren't killed by the Nazis.
Pretty similar for my family. My great grandmother emigrated from Ukraine to the US in the early 1900s. My mom is a professional genealogist, and last I heard from her, she's found only 2 living relatives in Europe/Israel.
As an American that went to school in Tennessee, you didn't pay attention in class.
As an American, I'm not surprised that many didn't listen in class.
I believe it was 6 million Poles, broken down as 2mil ethnic Poles, 1mil polish citizens (came from neighboring countries) and 3 mil polish Jews. Never understood why the number for Poles only went 2-3 mil, while discounting 3mil Polish Jews. All total, the number of Poles was close if not equal to the number of Jewish people killed (3mil overlap between the groups). Crazy stat, 20% of Poland’s population died during the Holocaust.
Even more shocking how little people know about what Soviets did after the war. The torment didn't just stop after ww2
The Soviets literally kept concentration camps running for their own prisoners.
US military ran nazi camps for a few months as well, sometimes keeping same guards.
Even worse when you were a Russian POW and sent to the gulag after being freed because you got captured by Germany. The reality is it sucked to be in the war whether or not you were a soldier or civilian on either side.
By different estimates (based on Soviet de-classified documents) 80-90% of POW have been cleared by 1944-1946.
Only 8% have been assigned to penal battalions (not executed).
A few of my German relatives died in camps and they weren’t Jewish. People think I’m weird for bringing it up. Yes, the Nazi’s killed many people from their own country even some of the Lutheran ones!
The Nazis were murderous bastards. Their invasion of the Soviet Union and the Pale of Settlement came with the explicit intent of eliminating the local population (to make way for colonization by “racially-superior” Germans).
That said, it needs to be understood that the “camps” built for the purpose of enacting the Final Solution were a specific and differentiated case: they existed for no purpose other than industrialized mass murder. Chelmno was the prototype, followed by Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec. Almost nobody survived them. Their only purpose was to destroy the Jews and Romani of occupied Europe. When there were no longer sufficient numbers to keep them busy, they were dismantled to hide evidence of their existence. The Operation Reinhard camps were effectively gone by the time the Allies liberated Europe.
That’s not to say that places like Auschwitz constituted lesser atrocities. More people died there than at any other single camp. It was larger than the death camps, and served multiple functions. It both murdered those who were deemed unfit for labor upon arrival, and provided slave labor for the war. Obscenities like Nazi medical experimentation happened there. Ultimately, the death of the inmates was expected and intended. The entire Nazi ideology was genocidal.
Some of the extermination camps were so - depressingly - effective at their murderous and genocidal tasks almost NO survivors existed. At Chelmno one of the only confirmed survivors only survived because the shot to his head didn't kill him. Less than ten people survived that camp that killed over 100,000 people.
Belzec is the most horrifying for me. 3rd most fatal of the camps, and only ONE survivor to come forward.
How'd that happen?
Similarly, there were only about a dozen known survivors of Treblinka, all of whom have now passed. We’re lucky to have the testimony of a few of them. The interview with Abraham Bomba in Claude Lanzmann’s “Shoah” is burned into my brain permanently.
Don't forget the Einsatzgruppen, millions died in the Camps but millions more yet unidentified men, woman, and children died outside of their homes all throughout Eastern Europe. The Belarusian SSR in particular had something like 1/4 of it's population killed off with thousands of villages destroyed and hundreds completely erased along with the people who lived there.
I couldn't stomach to finish it (yet) but there's a book called "Death is my trade" (original title La mort est mon métier) by Robert Merle, which is based on the testimony the commander of Auschwitz gave after his trial.
It talks a lot about how the camps were early on all experimenting about different ways and finding different bottlenecks in the process of industrializing genocide. It's terrifying. I had to give up reading it when they're discussing various ways of getting rid of two thousand bodies a day.
In Claude Lanzmann’s documentary “Shoah,” there is a hidden-camera interview with an SS officer who had been high up in the command structure at Treblinka. By the time of the interview, the officer was a broken, alcoholic, dying old man. I was struck by the dissonance of seeing him as such, and imagining him as a perpetrator of mass murder (which, by his own admission, he was).
The entire Nazi ideology was genocidal.
The entire Nazi ideology was genocidal.
There is no other place to end up when you decide you're superior to other people.
Communists, political prisoners and homosexuals all had had a lower survival rate than Jews in the camps
Lets not forget those with apparent disabilities as well...
It might actually be easier to list the people the Nazis do not want killed then those they wanted killed
Aryans - ✅
And that concludes the list, thanks for reading!
Also, *not all "Aryans". Not even the r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ones.
not even the ones
not even the ones
Stupid question but what is the serious answer to this question?
Was the Nazi's end goal to exterminate nearly the entire planet or to conquer it?
Thankfully the fucking nazis were handled and stopped, but I wonder what the world would look like today had we lost.
Serious answer: First and foremost Nazi Germany wanted a lot of Eastern Europe, constituting modern day Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and South Russia as colonial territory. Settle Germans in these territories and use its resources to make a truly self sufficient empire.
Secondly, they wanted to unite the Greater Germanic peoples, including the Austrians, Dutch, Danish, Belgians, Swedes and Norwegians. Opinions on the Czechs varied, for some they were Slavs, for others they were Slav-ified Germans.
Regarding the "unwanted people", the Jews and Gypsies were to be removed from these "German" territories. Mass murder wasn't the first plan, but as the world turned against the Germans, they became more convinced that the Jews were behind this and they became public enemy nr. 1. The Slavic people would have served as second class citizens, pushed into quasi slavery. The Nazis saw them as their equivalent to the American blacks or the people in Europe's colonies.
The war with countries like France and Britain was mostly to get them to exit the war, so the Germans could focus on the war the actually wanted to fight, the one in the East.
Basically if there was a need for land for the "German People" and you were on it then you'd be dead. Lebensraum.
It's one of the horrifying issues of Naziism among many. Assuming infinite growth you'd have infinite extermination if taken down it's logical progression.
And I don't think they really had a truly thought out endgame. They claimed things like how they would split the world up and etc but realistically it was a hateful murder spree. The extermination and labor camps were net drains on the German war economy but they still continued.
Yes, the planned division of the world was political propaganda to assure their allies that "No, you're cool as long as you stay on your side of the fence :)"
The betrayal of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was the first of many planned. There was no ideological room for competition under Nazism, there is only political expediancy until the inevitable purges of whoever the government decides is the enemy of the week.
I would believe it if, say, Nazi Germany somehow won WW2 along with Imperial Japan, these two will not remain in peace for long. I'd guess somehow Imperial Japan will pick up the anti-colonialism narrative while extorting the every last bit out of the conqurered just like the colonists they claim to fight, and the Asian populace would be the new Jews to the Nazis.
Hitler's ambitions didn't extend to Asia. He viewed Asia as too distinct to be ruled by Germans and believed the Japanese should rule over Asia because of the shared heritage and history. He had a great deal of respect for Chinese people too, but chose Japan as his eastern ally because of their military strength at the time.
They wanted only the people of a specific race and ideology to survive, and would exterminate or enslave everyone else to accomplish it.
The point was to always have an enemy to blame and to justify a continual "state of emergency".
Workers are suffering under terrible conditions and low wages? It's the foreigners stealing jobs!
People are rioting? Queer people are corrupting our nations morals!
Petty theft and homelessness is increasing? It's those damned roma! They choose to do that because it's part of their degenerate culture!
Politicians enrich themselves while making empty promises of improving conditions for regular people? Communism is infecting our pure society!
Everyone suffers while the wealthy continue to amass more resources at the cost of everyone else? That's because of jews!
As an American this sounds terrifyingly familiar.
And a lot of Roma people
Let’s not forget all the children with a mental health diagnosis or born with a physical disability. These children that were were “euthanized” without consent from their parents, cremated, and then given to back to their families.
While it’s easy and justifiable to blame the Nazis for these gruesome acts, it’s important to acknowledge that this practice started happening before 1939 and continued after 1945. These acts weren’t done by Nazi soldiers at a concentration camp. These took place in treatment facilities by nurses and doctors who were charged with caring for these children. I know we want to blame the evil of mankind on some villain or boogeyman but if we don’t see that we don’t need to look any further than our own reflection, then we are doomed to see the past repeated again.
Roma too. They always get left out of these lists, maybe to make it easier to treat them poorly
Labor camps or death camps?
I've had to explain this to so many people so many times. My grandfather on the maternal side lost his entire family in WW2. When I say entire I mean he was the sole survivor. Fought in the war as a teenager and then fled to Canada Post war.
many people from their own country
many people from their own country
The German Jews people have also been people from their own country. Many of which considered themselves as German, at least until the early 1930s and fought for Germany in WW1.
I think they were speaking in the context of the OP regarding Polish people who were not Jewish. They weren't implying that German Jews weren't German.
From the Jewish perspective the German Jews were also the most assimilated ones, the ones who were most integrated into wider society, while in other countries there was more of a social division between Jews and gentiles.
That combined with the Dreyfus Affair were two pretty solid cornerstones of Zionism. Before the Dreyfus Affair there was this belief that France's Third Republic as Europe's most emancipated and progressive state would become a natural safe haven as opposed to the reactionary Empires elsewhere in Europe.
If the country of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity can still turn into an antisemitic shithole, and if the most assimilated Jewish community is still being genocided, where and how could they ever be safe?
I think even if you disagree with the consequences of it, at least to me the premise seems pretty spot-on.
The first prisoners sent to concentration camps were German communists, the first person executed in the camps was a German communist. People really didn't learn anything from the poem "first they came for the Communists..."
I'm Polish. My family (what was left) emigrated to the US in the 1960s. A few years ago I was shooting the shit and telling a Jewish friend of mine about my family history, and about how we lost family members in the elimination camps, and for some reason she became incredibly offended. We had previously been close friends but she pretty much blew up at me and I've been afraid to discuss it ever since. I wasn't meaning to minimize what she's faced in her life as a Jew or dismiss the persecutions of the Jews or anything, but I still don't understand why she got upset and I am too afraid to ask. If someone has any ideas of how I screwed up by mentioning this I'd be happy to hear about it, because it was a confusing and painful experience. I had previously thought that it was common knowledge that the Nazis killed non-Jewish people too.
Sounds like she isn't aware of what the Poles went through. If she's not willing to be educated and sympathetic towards the suffering of others, she's not your friend imo.
I don't know about Jewish education in the US, but here in Israel we're taught and educated a ton about everything that happened to Jews in the holocaust (understandably and justifiably ofc), but virtually nothing about gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs and various other groups and ethnicities that were also brutally murdered. And in general almost nothing is taught about the Polish history in WWII, besides the fact they were invaded and the camps were there. Chances are that she simply did not know the severity of what happened to other groups in WWII - not a fault of her own, when you're Jewish you simply learn about the holocaust from a very Jewish focused perspective, which is understandable, but I think its important teach a lot more about what happened to other groups.
It was enough if they tought you were a communist to kill you. It didn't have to be true. They didn't only kill the Jews, they killed whoever didn't fit into their worldview. Which was basically anyone but them.
People hear about six million Jews and think that was it. The actual total of Holocaust victims is a bit over eleven million people when you include everybody else.
People think I’m weird for bringing it up.
People think I’m weird for bringing it up.
It's an unfortunate effect of so much discourse about the Holocaust and other atrocities by the Nazis in fact being covert attempts at apologia for the Nazis. Some Holocausts deniers are aware enough to know that they can't just say "The Holocaust didn't happen, but it should have!" and expect a good reaction from the public at large, so they instead try to front arguments that appear on the surface to be reasonable but are intended to marginalise the role of antisemitism in Nazi ideology. "Other groups besides the Jews also suffered genocide from the Nazis" is a literally true statement, and I think it's also reasonable to characterise most European and North American people's understanding of the Holocaust to have been a genocide primarily targeted at the Jews.
But it is one thing to know your history enough to recognise that the annihilation of Jewish people was one of the top goals of the Nazi Party and so Jews were among the hardest hit groups, and that a lot of our most renowned accounts of the Holocaust (If This is a Man, Maus, Anne Frank's Diary, etc.) thus also come from Jewish people who understandably focus on the treatment of Jewish people, and it's another to hype this up to conspiracy theories and suggest that International Jewry™ uses their of course total global control of the mass media to "monopolise" the Holocaust and make it impossible to criticize them.
My politics are leftwing and I'm autistic, I know that both groups suffered directly and deliberately under the Nazis and that it may be a little less known about to the majority of people, but I also know how easily pointing something like that out can sound like it's trying to covertly deny what Jews went through, because there are a shitload of people out there trying to deny what Jews went through.
Yes however those other people need a voice too. Alot of different people went through hell with the Nazis
Wiki Victims Murdered Source
Jews Approximately 6 million
Soviet civilians 5.7 million (excl. 1.3 million Jews)
Soviet POWs 2.8–3.3 million
Poles 1.8–3 million
Disabled people 270,000
Spanish Republicans 3,500
Jehovah's Witnesses 1,250–5,000
Forgot the 10%+ of the Greek population that died as well.
20 years after 10-15% of the Greek population got killed, and another 20% had became refugees.
As far as percentage of population killed, Poland suffered the most out of any country in the world with nearly 20% of the entire country dying during the war.
Belarus lost 25%
Damn didn’t know that. Maybe cause they were considered part of the Soviet Union their casualty figures just get lumped in?
I think a lot of people just don’t know enough about Belarus. Come and See helps a bit since it shows moviegoers how they were treated, but we know so little otherwise. I know they hate Lukashenko and it’s Belorussian partisans who are helping stop his involvement in Ukraine.
There's a joke I heard once. If you ever think your life doesn't have meaning, remember that Belarus has a board of tourism.
I laughed too loud at that. 😂
Belarus wasn't an independent country at that time.
Maybe that's where these different numbers come from.
they killed tens of millions of slavs - somehow its often not on list of crimes of nazi-fascist when its discussed in west
Anti-Slavic racism is an essential component of Nazism. Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party regarded Slavic countries (especially Poland, the Soviet Union, and Yugoslavia) and their peoples as non-Aryan Untermenschen (subhumans), they were deemed foreign nations that could not be considered part of the Aryan master race.[failed verification]
Hitler’s autobiography Mein Kampf was openly anti-Slavic. He wrote: “One ought to cast the utmost doubt on the state-building power of the Slavs” and from the beginning, he rejected the idea of incorporating the Slavs into Greater Germany. There were exceptions for some minorities in these states which were deemed by the Nazis to be the descendants of ethnic Germanic settlers, and not merely Slavs who were willing to be Germanized. Hitler considered the Slavs to be racially inferior, because, in his view, the Bolshevik Revolution had put the Jews in power over the mass of Slavs, who were, by his own definition, incapable of ruling themselves but were instead being ruled by Jewish masters. He considered the development of Modern Russia to have been the work of Germanic, not Slavic, elements in the nation, but believed those achievements had been undone and destroyed by the October Revolution, in Mein Kampf, he wrote, “The organization of a Russian state formation was not the result of the political abilities of the Slavs in Russia, but only a wonderful example of the state-forming efficacity of the German element in an inferior race”.
Because, according to the Nazis, the German people needed more territory to sustain its surplus population, an ideology of conquest and depopulation was formulated for Central and Eastern Europe according to the principle of Lebensraum, itself based on an older theme in German nationalism which maintained that Germany had a "natural yearning" to expand its borders eastward (Drang Nach Osten). The Nazis' policy towards Slavs was to exterminate or enslave the vast majority of the Slavic population and repopulate their lands with millions of ethnic Germans and other Germanic peoples. According to the resulting genocidal Generalplan Ost, millions of German and other "Germanic" settlers would be moved into the conquered territories, and the original Slavic inhabitants were to be annihilated, removed or enslaved. The policy was focused especially on the Soviet Union, as it alone was deemed capable of providing enough territory to accomplish this goal. As part of this policy, the Hunger Plan was developed, and it included the seizure of all of the food which was produced on occupied Soviet territory and the delivery of it to Germany, primarily to the German army. The full implementation of this plan would have ultimately resulted in the starvation and death of 20 to 30 million people (mainly Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians). It is estimated that in accordance with this plan, over four million Soviet citizens were starved to death from 1941–1944. The resettlement policy reached a much more advanced stage in Occupied Poland because of its immediate proximity to Germany.
For strategic reasons, the Nazis deviated from some of their ideological theories by forging alliances with Ukrainian collaborators, the Independent State of Croatia (established after the invasion of Yugoslavia), and Bulgaria. Yugoslav general Milan Nedic would also lead Nazi Germany's Yugoslavian puppet state. The Nazis officially justified these alliances by stating that the Croats were "more Germanic than Slav", a notion which was propagated by Croatia's fascist dictator Ante Pavelić, who espoused the view that the "Croatians were the descendants of the ancient Goths" who "had the Panslav idea forced upon them as something artificial". However, the Nazi regime continued to classify the Croats as "subhumans" despite its alliance with them. Hitler also believed that the Bulgarians were "Turkoman" in origin. After conquering Yugoslavia, attention was instead focused on targeting mainly the nation's Jewish and Roma (Gypsy) population.
Fascism and Nazism
Anti-Slavism was a notable component of Italian Fascism and Nazism both prior to and during World War II.
In the 1920s, Italian fascists hated the Yugoslavs, especially the Serbs. They accused the Serbs of having "atavistic impulses" and they also claimed that the Yugoslavs were conspiring on behalf of "Grand Orient Masonry and its funds". One anti-Semitic claim stated that the Serbs were involved in a "social-democratic, masonic Jewish internationalist plot".
Benito Mussolini considered the Slavic race inferior and barbaric. He believed that the Yugoslavs (Croats) were a threat to Italy because they wanted to seize Dalmatia, a region which was claimed by Italy, and he also claimed that the threat rallied Italians at the end of World War I: "The danger of seeing the Jugo-Slavians settle along the whole Adriatic shore had caused a bringing together in Rome of the cream of our unhappy regions. Students, professors, workmen, citizens—representative men—were entreating the ministers and the professional politicians". These claims often tended to emphasize the "foreignness" of the Yugoslavs by stating that they were newcomers to the area, unlike the ancient Italians, whose territories were occupied by the Slavs.
Count Galeazzo Ciano, Mussolini's son in law, and the Foreign Minister of Fascist Italy who was later executed by Mussolini, wrote the following entry in his diary:Vidussoni comes to see me. After having spoken about a few casual things, he makes some political allusions and announces savage plans against the Slovenes. He wants to kill them all. I take the liberty of observing that there are a million of them. "That does not matter," he answers firmly.
Y’know, the more I hear about these nazis, the less I like them.
Wait till you hear about their fangroup, the 'Imperial Japan'
Yeah the Japanese must have great PR, because they were WAY worse than ze Germans.
I guess as long as you hate everyone who is not you equally, rather than singling out a couple of groups, you get a bit of a pass...
The Japanese don't have that great PR, it's just that you're a westerner and live in a cultural sphere where Japan simply wasn't seen as being as relevant as Germany.
The Chinese, Koreans, etc. regularly get into diplomatic fights with Japan over this stuff. They even edit TV shows or comics that depict the Rising Sun symbol from Japan, due to it having been used as the symbol of the Imperial army and navy back in the day.
The great PR was being a US anticommunist ally during the cold war. It was great timing for Japan.
"I don't know if any of you are history buffs...." - Norm MacDonald
I'll never understand why people think the Nazis only targeted Jews. They targeted everyone they didn't like, and people need to be aware of the full scope of their hatred.
I’m also stunned how often this is not being taught in school.
To be fair, I’m German so I guess the way this topic was treated in school was way more detailed and thorough.
We went to a labor camp and learned from professionals, it’s honestly a lot to handle emotionally, but I advise it to everyone. Everything I’d learned in school suddenly felt so much more real. And I learned a lot more there, too.
But back to the point, sadly it’s a common misconception that only Jews were targeted. But the Nazis targeted everyone who were a threat to their “superior Aryan race”
They made the Jews the big enemy, yes. But there were Sinti and Roma, lgbtq+ people and many more.
There were different patches for the different classes. Political enemies, “Berufsverbrecher” (people who committed crimes frequently), emigrants, homosexuals or "asocials." Jews. There were special patches for Polish and Czech people.
Something that I feel NEEDS to be mentioned is the euthanasia that took place in Nazi Germany. It was horrible. They told the families of disabled people that their family member will get to a home where they could live. But of course they were murdered, often with the well known gas showers. This all happened without the knowledge of the families. Once you dive into this, you won’t ever forget it. It is horrible.
Because during and after the war, a lot of people said, “Hitler was terrible, but at least he did something about the Jews”. What survived of Europe’s decimated Jewish population worked like hell to make sure people remembered because a lot did not care to. Hell, even when they immigrated to America they were banned from certain social circles, neighborhoods, and jobs because they weren’t considered white. That only changed when the civil rights laws passed. The Jewish population of Europe had been around for a thousand years, and now there’s hardly a trace. We talk about it because there were louder voices that wanted people to forget. We can talk about the Jews and we can talk about the Roma, Sinti, homosexuals, communists, jehovahs witnesses, resistance fighters, intellects, disabled people, Poles, and Belorussians who were killed too.
And opposite political beliefs too. Also family members were sometimes rounded up as well. No reason to see that they would've stopped there either.
"Thank you for helping us round up all the opposition party members. Now, we know you're a part of the party, but you have some fringe beliefs, and since there is no longer any other major political opponents to challenge us, go ahead and step into the camp as well." - Summary of leopards ate my face party.
You forgot disabled people
I did! I’m sorry about that. Some of the very first to be murdered by the Nazi regime. Added it above.
The euthanasia that took place back then honestly makes my stomach turn.
You misspelled murder.
You misspelled genocide.
I believe Belarus lost the most percentage wise
Yeah I believe it was something like 1/4 of their population. Similar levels to the Cambodian genocide, I think. Except for that situation it was their own government.
Percent wise, Ukraine lost the most people.
Percent wise, Ukraine lost the most people.
You must have meant Belarus.
I’m Jewish, lost many relatives in the Holocaust, and I’ll never understand either.
Per capita, I believe more Gypsies were killed than Jews.
Per capita, the disabled were killed in the highest numbers, yet not one comment in this thread remembers that population.
My grandmother’s uncle lost an arm for the Kaiser in WW I. He refused to leave Germany because he felt they’d never hurt a war hero like him… he died in a concentration camp….
That was also something that held back some Jewish Germans for too long. The served proportionally more than the average German, so they though they had proven once and for all that they are as German as everybody else.
To a certain degree, they were right. As long as Hindenburg was there Hitler didn't dare to touch veterans, because Hindenburg above all saw himself as a soldier and actively protected veterans. But once he died it was free season.
My grandmother and her brother were sent to live with strangers in England when it was clear war was on the horizon, but before it broke out. (Lots of children were. Mostly through a program called “Kindertransport”)
Shortly after they got there it was my grandmother’s brothers bar mizvah and their grandmother came over on a visitors visa to celebrate. While she was there war broke out and she couldn’t go back to Germany so she stayed in England and survived the war.
How many more people could have done that and survived? There simply was massive cognitive dissonance, where on the one hand people sent their kids to live with strangers in other countries, but on the other hand said “I don’t need to leave, this can’t possibly happen in Germany”
it's a very weird thing, the Jews served in their hundreds of thousands in just about every army of the first world war and just about every government thought they were shirkers, prejudice outweighing the facts.
The Supreme Army Command actually made a statistic about that - this is where we know from that over proportionally many Jewish Germans served - but they didn't like the result, so they buried the report. Many Germany never knew that many Jewish Germans served, the only thing they heard were the conspiracy theories of the fascists.
And the Jewish people had no answer to that, since they also had no idea about the numbers, only their personal experience, and that's not very solid evidence.
That was just the start of Generalplan Oüst which called for the elimination of 90% of the population of Eastern Europe, 285 million people,.
That is why Hitler is considered worse than Stalin or Mao. He was just getting started when he was stopped.
When it comes to the list of genocides by death toll, Nazi Germany occupies three of the top four spots.
Damn. The Nazis were like the Barry Bonds of mass genocides.
What is Oüst?? It's Ost.
Guess Ost isn't German enough, gotta be an Ü in there somewhere lol
Well Stalin and Mao mostly killed people indirectly from incompetence and insistence on doing things their way. It's bad but not even close to what Hitler was doing.
One estimate is that the Nazis killed around 13 million people altogether, with Jews accounting for around half.
Not including war casualties. That's just the domestic civilian numbers.
I remember seeing a graph/chart stating that ~18% of Poland's entire population was killed in WWII.
To see Canadian neonazis rise up, and realize a bunch of them have Slavic last names, it boggles the fucking mind.
Not just racially inferior, Slavic people were considered to be the lowest and basically sub-human, if they could have it their way they would have exterminated all of them the same way they planned to do with Jewish people. People think Nazis were all about the Jews.
Well, the lowest "acceptable" race. Jews and Sinti and Roma were below them, but Slavic people were to be culled and enslaved ("civilized"), while everything below should be exterminated.
But yeah, if Hitler would've won and had his way, Eastern Europe would've been a bloodbath and those who wouldn't be killed would live only as broken slaves.
(Which meant exterminating like 80% of them and moving the rest to the east)
Nazis killed more slavic people than they killed jews and that's by a large factor. Being eastern european jew was the worst of all.
Auschwitz itself had soviet POWs as the first batch of people to be gassed to death.
They killed 6 million Jews, out of a total of 13 million - lots of others such as gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill, etc., but the Jews were the ‘top’ target numerically.
A basic Google search tells me that they killed around 6 million Soviet civilians excluding the Soviet Jews and additionally killed 2-3 million Soviet prisoner of war. People don't talk about eastern Europe. They considered everyone inferior. 20million Soviet Population died. Nearly 25% Belarusian population.
Not really slavs were to be "culled"to about 10% of their total population and kept as slaves to work the "colonized "lands.
Poland lost 1/3rd of her population from 1939 to 1945 from a combination of Nazis, Soviets and the war itself.
In 1939 there were 36 million Poles. In 1945, only 24 million
As one author once wrote, the War really ought to be subtitled “The Martyrdom of Poland”. Few countries in history have suffered so much and for so long as Poland did. As a people, they’re one of humanity’s great survivors.
People didn’t know this? I thought everyone knew the nazis went for ANYONE that didn’t fit their image.
The more I see people are unaware of the full picture of who the Nazis targeted, the more I demand schools require Holocaust lessons to graduate. Solely focusing on Jewish people being persecuted is a disservice to all the others who suffered. For instance, Romani people (No, they aren't gypsies), had one of their languages practically wiped out because of the Nazis.
As a Jew, I always hear the number in reference to concentration camps as 6 million. Pretty sure it was 11 million when you considered ALL people and I always correct them.
Good for you.
People.forget the Poles, communists, disabled, feminists, anarchists, Roma, mentally ill, trade unionists, bahai, homosexual, ect.
Because we still didn't like most of those people after the war.
People never talk about the children either. The pictures at Auschwitz’s museum are disturbing when you read that almost all the children weren’t counted in the numbers of the murdered victims. They pulled them off the trains and didn’t inventory them, but just took them directly to the showers to be executed. So many young children unaccounted for.
And the child size prosthetic limb display at the camp is… well, I have no words.
Wow that's horrific and did slip my.mind, thank you
not just Poles, slavs in general
How is this TIL and not common knowledge??
Most people aren't that concerned with learning about history on a deeper level than what high school taught, and half-remember what was in the high school history curriculum at that.
I'm older than some here, but my college professor was a young man in Poland in the military during the war, he was at Warsaw and took folks out through the sewer system for 47 days until he was captured and in a POW camp to the end of the war.
He would be very saddened to think that such facts, history, and memory were so easily forgot.
If you can, I recommend that you see the holocaust museum in Washington DC. When you enter, you are given a booklet that contains the story of a holocaust victim. As you progress through the museum, you read further.
Mine told the story of a 7th day Adventist who refused to fight. He was killed by hanging.
The museum is in memory to all victims, the artists, homosexuals, Jews, philosophers, political opponents, races seen as inferior, etc.
On the west coast we have the Museum of Tolerance which has a strong focus on the Holocaust. I've been a couple times now (as a kid on a field trip and then again with my kid as a chaperone for his class field trip). It's extremely upsetting but so important at the same time.
So if anyone is no where near DC, but is near or visiting Los Angeles, that's another option.
Nearly all of my grandmother's family died in the concentration camps as non-Jewish Poles. She and her sister were the only two that got out.
I'm not sure how my grandmother's sister got out of Dachau, but she eventually made it to the USA and settled there. My grandmother someone gained the favor of a guard who began supplying her with food and water (I never asked how whilst she was alive but I'm not blind to the possibilities), and he eventually provided her and a couple of others with a window of escape. They were smuggled out in egress transport and then slowly made it across the mainland towards Britain over many months.
All of this was (as she understood) due to her father's private investment in the Polish air force. All of the investment prior to the war was misappropriated anyway. Obviously she came to understand that they would have taken her family anyway, but yeah. Was always fascinating and horrifying to hear about it all. I do wish she was still around to tell me more now that I'm old enough to understand better and ask more pertinent questions, but also relieved that I didn't dig too much and drag up too much or push too hard.
The entire plan of Generalplan Ost and lebensraum was after and concurrently the of killing of the Jews they would killed the majority of the Slavs and use a rump left to become slaves to the Master German Race.
Yep, and tens/hundreds of thousands of Slavs of all sorts, especially Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian ; Roma, anyone suspected of being a communist, people who were mentally ill or developmentally delayed, disabled, suspected of hiding Jews, homosexuals and others like “100 males for killed/ 50 for every wounded German soldier” in occupied Serbia for example.
After the war was won, the Nazis had detailed plans to kill another 50 million civilians through artificial famines. The primarily Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian and Polish residents of rural areas in Eastern Europe would be starved to make room for German settlers.
What people don't understand is the Holocaust was phase one of a plan for genocide of all "inferior eastern races". Essentially they would remove & Aryanise the 25% of population that met their racial ideals. The other 75% would be removed by a combination of forced sterilisation, worked to death or engineered famine. The grain lands of the east would be settled by German colonists who need a generation of slave labour until they could produce the replacement population. The Holocaust was essentially the test case for the Nazis greater plans.
A very conservative estimate is, the Germans killed 25 million unarmed civilians. Check out the Democide web site. I'm going there to check my numbers.
11 million total died in the camps - homosexuals, Roma, dissidents, disabled, etc.
I may be mistaken, but when i was in school i was taught 6 million Jews were killed, but 6 million "others" were too (gays, other races, twins, etc).
If nazis had won, most of humanity would have ended up in those camps
Is the fact that they planned to get rid of slavs not known?
Wait the Nazis were the bad guys? I know a lot of people that will have egg on their face.
Are we the baddies!?
Not only Poles but all Slavic people were seen as inferior. More Slavs were killed by Nazis than Jews
has the education system failed so bad that we have folks who dont know the Nazis wanted to exterminate just about everyone except for themselves?
The Ukrainian nationalists army led by Bandera also did their part massacring the Polish people
There were two Warsaw uprisings. The one in the Jewish ghetto, in which the other Poles just kinda hung around to see what might happen. Then a second one by Polish Resistance, and in that one the Soviets stopped their advance and let the Germans finish them off. Because the Russians didn’t like Poles either.
Wait till you find out about the Slavs...
all slavs, gays, disabled, etc, were on chopping block
Also political prisoners, homosexuals, religious groups (catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses predominantly), Romani gypsies, and anyone else deemed an enemy of the Reich. Let us not forget the T4 Aktion, arguably the precursor to the Final Solution, which saw physically and mentally disabled people ‘euthanised’ (murdered).
Jewish people account for approx 6 million of the [again approx] 11 million victims murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators.
Really glad my Polish born Jewish great-grandparents fled Poland for the US before the Nazis took power or I wouldn't be writing this today.
Glad this is getting some visibility. You never hear of the gypsy holocaust, or the gay holocaust despite their also being real things. Not on the scale of the massacre of Jewish people, but pretty horrific all the same.
…and the disabled. They killed anyone with physical or mental disabilities…epilepsy, deafness, paralyzed, etc. They were among the first to be killed even before Jews.
My Polish Grandmother and her family were forced to work on farms for the German Army. Many non-Jewish Polish people had their entire families ripped apart by those Jack-booted thugs. My Motto is there is never a wrong time to knock a nazi out.
More uncomfortable information being left out of school curricular content, supporting the adage that those who do not learn from history tend to repeat it.
Hitler did the things he did because he enthusiastically learned from the past experiences of Frederick the Great, Bismarck, and Wilhelm II. The big problem is rarely a failure to learn, rather the active learning of bad lessons.
Wait until OP hears about the pink triangle and how the alies sent gays from concentration camps to prison because being gay was illegal in Germany.
Edit: Pink triangle. Not Purple. Has been corrected above.
Bruhhow the fuck did you not know this?! What the fuck. Jewish people were not the only one killed by nazis, they also killed a shit ton of civilan people in Poland and soviet union. Have you heard about the siege of Leningrad(now Saint Petersburg)?? Germans sieged the city for almost 3 years, and at least 1,5 million of people died of starvation, bombs, and cold. How the fuck do you not know this?!
The fact that this is a TIL is terrifying.
Today I learned that the Second World War and the Holocaust clearly isn’t taught everywhere anymore.
Two things at once: yes, the nazis really did hate Jews the most. Yes, the nazis really did hate many other groups and try to exterminate/displace them too.
Everyone knows about the 6 million who were Jewish, but for some reason the fact that the total was 10 million is not as widely known. 4 million Poles, Russians, Hungarians, gypsies, homosexuals and others never came out of those camps.